Curse

Ashley Twig · Aug 08, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

I'm concerned these high prices will drive people to alternate means of income (think buying gold from eBay-bots) because the only thing they care about is the looks of their character,

I care about the looks of my character too.
Think of the green mesmer armor. Yuck. Everybody runs around in green, dark blue if you get roug's attire.
But I never bought dye for more than 500g.
Lucky me I found 2 black dyes so far.

And about the gold on eBay: Isn't that what aNet wants?
As long as there's a large industry for selling in-game items for off-game money (real money) GW will have lot's of players.
If there was an efficient means to put a stop to that, player numbers would drop.
Dropping player numbers are, sooner or later, the death to any online-game.
And a dead online-game doesn't generate profits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Even though nobody is selling their dye to the merchant anymore, somebody must still be buying, because the price has been rising long after it reached a ridiculous point.

I think it's more the want-to-buy demand than the actual buying, that keeps prices up.
GW probably has a counter that grows each time a player clicks on "request quote" on any item.
The higher that counter, without an acuall buy/sell process, the higher the price might become.

Silmor · Aug 08, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

I care about the looks of my character too.
Think of the green mesmer armor. Yuck. Everybody runs around in green, dark blue if you get roug's attire.
But I never bought dye for more than 500g.
Lucky me I found 2 black dyes so far.

Right now I believe people are so daunted by the black dye prices that if they even the slightest intention of ever dying any of their character's sets black (which most people do), they'll desperately cling to those black dyes, because having to buy the dye lateron would cost more than they could ever afford. But those people who play casually and haven't gotten lucky with black dye, might finally decide to just get it over with, buy some gold to afford those dyes and marvel at their new looks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

And about the gold on eBay: Isn't that what aNet wants?

Judging from their EULA, it's not. They don't earn money selling in-game gold to players, third parties do, and the market actively works to skew their in-game economy. ArenaNet earns money from initial sales and expansion sales, not from players playing inbetween. As long as people are curious enough to buy the game initially, and hopeful/satisfied enough to buy the expansion, ArenaNet is happy - they don't need people to enjoy themselves between those two events. Ofcourse initial sales are still going, so they benefit from positive intermediate reviews as well, and if those intermediate reviews say "this game is dominated by bots and the people buying gold from bots", that's not going to help their sales.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

I think it's more the want-to-buy demand than the actual buying, that keeps prices up.
GW probably has a counter that grows each time a player clicks on "request quote" on any item.
The higher that counter, without an acuall buy/sell process, the higher the price might become.

This assumption doesn't make any sense. The moment you click on the dye merchant, you get presented with current quotes for every vial of dye. Since the trader is not precognitive, he won't know which dye you might be interested in, and raising all dye prices simply because someone clicks on the dye merchant would be so incredibly stupid that I can't seriously consider this possibility.

There might be other factors at play, such as delayed inflation (resulting in high peaks every time a dye becomes affordable since there will be a sudden burst of purchases) or supply decay (which, as long as people don't sell their dye to the trader, would continually raise the price - and as such doesn't sound too plausible either), but it seems far more logical that the reasons for the black dye prices are the large commission percentage (causing a huge gap between buying and selling price, discouraging player-aided restocking and encouraging hoarding) and the influx of lots of gold from the now-popular UW farmers, who can still afford the high prices.

Lorelei · Aug 08, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I read the first post of this thread again and it is SOOO funny now

trelloskilos · Aug 08, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

And earlier on today....

Silver dye. On sale for 5540g at the dye trader. Buying price? 1g

But I can't say I'm not surprised or relieved to some degree. Dyes are being treated like a commodity, and not like a customization accessory.

To my mind, there are two types of trader selling dyes. One is the casual trader who has stumbled on the dye from a drop while questing. It's a nice thing to have, but he'll sell it at a sensible price. Second is the commodity broker, who is constantly at LA, buying low, selling high, and whose storage box is filled with loads of every colour they can get hold of.

So, now that the price of dye has gone tits-up, how has this affected both types of gamer? Well, the casual trader is still going to sell at whatever price seems suitable. The only problem is that now, there is no "suitable" price. All that's going to happen is that the dye will sit in the storage, and probably get used, or given away to a mate or kept there until dye prices find equilibrium.

The commodity trader must be freaking out at this very moment. While his vast collection of dyes now has a lovely high sell value, he knows that if he can't sell them (and it's not likely that at those prices, anyone will buy), all that effort will have damaged him severely. There is still an influx of dyes from newbs coming over from pre-sear Ascalon, where dye drops are marginally more frequent, but they're not stupid! Another thing is that older gamers who might consider paying 500-700 for silver dye a week ago certainly wouldn't touch Silver dye at 5k+ at the moment.

The bottom line on Dye? Well, personally, I either use them or lose them. It may be fun to play the finances on GW to some people, but I'd sooner be out there killing monsters, doing quests etc.

Drakron · Aug 08, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

Circulation of black dye got almost to a full stop.
Why?
Greed!

Only if its Arena Net greed.

Black dye is a rare drop (Anet coded the drops), the trader have insane profit margins (Anet coded the traders) and drops are the only source of dye (Anet made dye drops only).

Dont blame players to hang into their dyes, players keep then for customization and since drops are the only source of dyes in the game, people would hang on even if they were worth nothing.

Lorelei · Aug 08, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by trelloskilos

but I'd sooner be out there killing monsters, doing quests etc.

*Bows to Trelloskilos*

*Repeats the mantra*

"Kill monsters, people! Kill monsters! You are slacking off sitting in Ascalon City or Lyon Arch playing funny ebay with funny gold!"

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 08, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Black dye is up... 24.4k! I went to check prices becuase I saw a level 4-7 warrior wearing a top dyed black.

Lost · Aug 09, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Ah, the dyes (except black) have returned to reasonable levels. Red is back down to 800. Much better.

DFrost · Aug 09, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Cruel? I'd say "staggering on the fine line between lunacy and mental derangement" is more like it. But I'm not complaining, I don't have use for dyes for a while, so I'll just sell everything for a big wad o' cash.

Krank · Aug 09, 2005, 01:19 AM // 01:19

But still lost, red should be at 300 its always been, i agree from 4.4 plat to 800 is a BEAUTIFUL decrease, but there still is a major problem here.

Ashley Twig · Aug 09, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Judging from their EULA, it's not.
...
ArenaNet earns money from initial sales and expansion sales, not from players playing inbetween.

I don't know. That's the official version.
On some other thread somebody mentioned that korea has to pay a fee to play GW. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, aNet sure gets a piece of the action.
So their income might not solely connected to initial sales and expansion sales.

They want to keep player numbers high.
But what does the majority of players do, after completing the game?
I think they go farming.
Why farm anyway? To increase money.
And then what? Having tons of platinum in-game is like finding gold bars in a dessert, dying of thirst. It's more or less useless, unless the farmers sell it on eBay to make "real" money.

So selling in-game-stuff on eBay (gold, whatever) is in the interest of aNet, because if there'd be no means to sell in-game stuff, the farmers would loose interest. Player numbers would drop.

And what's the difference between a farming bot and a farming human, except that the bot can farm 24/7?
Both share the same interest: getting rich.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

This assumption doesn't make any sense. The moment you click on the dye merchant, you get presented with current quotes for every vial of dye.

Sure, but you still have to press the "requst quote" button, to actually get the final price, and to be able to actually buy the item.
Why would they put an extra button like that in the game?

Plague · Aug 09, 2005, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I've personally yet to really understand the whole dye system. It seems like a quaint system, as the stuff is useless aside from just playfully coloring yourself for asthetics, but it's arguably the most sought-after form of object in the entire game, globally. You would think it would be a common throw-away item, considering you cannot get it back after you use it, you can't preview mixes between dyes, and the drops are so infrequent that you'll most likely go through several characters before you even have enough of one dye to create a dye-symmetrical set of armor.

Personally, I find the dye so rare and so expensive that I've never even used mine. I hide it away safely in my Storage.

That's another thing. If the value of the item is determined by the supply and demand to the merchants, and merchants will not offer you a reasonable price for your incredibly rare goods (that you'd likely want to have for yourself anyway) why would you ever sell them back to the merchant? It all seems quite unnecessary for something so trivial, imo.

Silmor · Aug 09, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

I don't know. That's the official version.

Let's just keep it at that then, there's little point to any further speculation into what ArenaNet does and does not intend, their actions will show their intentions in the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

Sure, but you still have to press the "requst quote" button, to actually get the final price, and to be able to actually buy the item.
Why would they put an extra button like that in the game?

The button is there to make sure the quote you get is current. If you request a quote right after you are presented with the prices, it will be identical to what was shown, if you request the quote five minutes later, it might have changed by then - I don't understand why they don't move the "your quote has expired" message you get when you wait five minutes after requesting a quote to where you try to buy a dye you were presented with too long ago, it makes the entire process rather cumbersome, but that's that.

Practically speaking people interested in buying dye will check the dye trader, and if the price for their dye of interest is acceptable will request a quote and buy it. I don't see any reasonable argument for the assumption that this quote request step would influence dye prices. The price for some dyes is currently higher than most people could afford, but that's a symptom, and supports your speculation as much as it supports the speculation that little dwarves sneak into the dye trader to raise prices there when people aren't looking.

Ashley Twig · Aug 09, 2005, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Let's just keep it at that then, there's little point to any further speculation into what ArenaNet does and does not intend, their actions will show their intentions in the end.

Spoke wisely, just when a conspiracy-theory got interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

I don't see any reasonable argument for the assumption that this quote request step would influence dye prices.

Well, it sure isn't one of those Hitchhiker'sGuide-buttons that sais: "You shouldn't have pressed me" after pressing it.
So if one assumes, that everything in existence has some purpose, that button must have one.

But as long as nobody else comes up with a theory, we'll never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

The price for some dyes is currently higher than most people could afford, but that's a symptom, and supports your speculation as much as it supports the speculation that little dwarves sneak into the dye trader to raise prices there when people aren't looking.

Well, at least I have a theory about the purpose of that button, which is better than simply describing what the button does.

Silmor · Aug 09, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

Well, at least I have a theory about the purpose of that button, which is better than simply describing what the button does.

Sometimes a button is just a button, without hidden functionality aside what was advertised. The button says it requests a quote, it requests a quote, and for some reason you need to have pressed the button before you can turn that quote into a deal. As far as we know, what the button does is the purpose of the button, your theory goes into a supposed hidden secondary purpose of the button, and without reasonable grounds to suspect such a purpose (for instance you've spent an afternoon requesting quotes for yellow dye, and yellow dye suddenly costs 20k), I don't see how that is 'better'. Unless you're bored and enjoy conspiracy theories, ofcourse.

ManadartheHealer · Aug 09, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Sometimes a button is just a button, without hidden functionality aside what was advertised. The button says it requests a quote, it requests a quote, and for some reason you need to have pressed the button before you can turn that quote into a deal. As far as we know, what the button does is the purpose of the button, your theory goes into a supposed hidden secondary purpose of the button, and without reasonable grounds to suspect such a purpose (for instance you've spent an afternoon requesting quotes for yellow dye, and yellow dye suddenly costs 20k), I don't see how that is 'better'. Unless you're bored and enjoy conspiracy theories, ofcourse.

Agreed...I don't believe it has any alternate purpose other than requesting a quote for some insanely overpriced dye

Any accusations that it may do other things are baseless

Ashley Twig · Aug 10, 2005, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Unless you're bored and enjoy conspiracy theories, ofcourse.

You don't have to be bored to enjoy conspiracy theories.

But for some reason, threads that only so much threaten to turn into a CT-thread are, sooner or later, shut down. I wonder why that is?

Since I haven't been online yesterday (first time in 2 months not online) I'm wondering: How are prices now? Did they return to normal as aNet "promised"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Any accusations that it may do other things are baseless

Well, the button wasn't there when I started playing GW in may.
It was put there after. Since it doesn't improve game play, I think it has a purpose other than just requesting a quote.

generik · Aug 10, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

You don't have to be bored to enjoy conspiracy theories.

But for some reason, threads that only so much threaten to turn into a CT-thread are, sooner or later, shut down. I wonder why that is?

Since I haven't been online yesterday (first time in 2 months not online) I'm wondering: How are prices now? Did they return to normal as aNet "promised"?

Well, the button wasn't there when I started playing GW in may.
It was put there after. Since it doesn't improve game play, I think it has a purpose other than just requesting a quote.

That button is a better user interface anyway... However I do call bunk on Anet's so called 'open disclosure policy'.

When I saw the new interface and read their public announcements, no where did they mention anything about new economic models, or even new trader behaviours... look at what we have now.

I suspect they changed something in the last update, they are just too cow/dishonest to admit it.

And please don't come forth with something along the lines of "It is their I.P., they can do as they deem fit.." blah blah... sure they can, then don't be a hypocrite and claim to be all open and transparent about things!

Tourist · Aug 10, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Was in Lion's Arch earlier today, and black dye was going for 26k. So I figure "Hey, I got that random black dye I picked up right after I started post-searing, wonder if I can make some good money from it?" So I checked the sell price for my precious black dye, and what's it selling for? ONE. FREAKING. GOLD.

Absofreakinglutely Regodamndiculous. ANET, FIX THY ECONOMY.

Luna Thirteen · Aug 10, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

and this is what I see...wow. I would like some orange dye please ^_^